As you can hear on Wed., the really interesting composers (Sauter, Graettinger, Brookmeyer, etc.) go nuts when they work with a standard song. There really is no limit to what you can do.
So why do we bother to make a distinction in jazz between a composer and an arranger? And we DO make that distinction, on recording notes etc. I fact I know people who will say "I'm not a composer, I'm an arranger!" I think Sy Johnson told me that once.
What do you think??
Lewis
I think most composers and arrangers would agree that both skills are required to do either. A composer must be able to arrange his own material and an arranger has to compose counter melodies and alternate versions of the preexisting melody when arranging. The differentiation is really about the source material. For a composer the source material is original and for the arranger the source material is some music that already exists. I would guess that those who prefer to be arrangers are more satisfied (and talented) with that aspect of the process and less interested in creating things from scratch. There's probably more money to be made in arranging, maybe that's why guys like Sy Johnson don't consider themselves composers. Every vocalist is willing to pay top dollar for quality arrangements, whereas composers usually make most of their money from grants.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ben. I would like to add is that some composers' compositions that are written from big band are indistinguishable in terms of the composer/arranger divide. What I mean is that there are certain compositions that we recognize as big band size arrangements, and thus blurs this distinction entirely (at least for me). I think the perfect example is A Child Is Born by Thad Jones. I know that people play small group renditions of this composition, but for me, these performances fall short of Thad's arrangement for big band. Similarly, you can point to modern day composers such as Darcy James Argue whose compositions (to this point) are solely performed in a big band format.
ReplyDeleteI think this distinction comes about as a result of issue Ben hits on. Composer/arrangers cannot generally support themselves without doing work that can be termed "supporting someone else's musical endeavor". Whether its writing for vocals, swing type bands or non jazz situations, writers in general need to be diverse and take any opportunity they can get. Think about all the great writers who work in the film industry- Ellington, Oliver Nelson, Slide Hampton, Terence Blanchard, and others. There are still people who are on staff at publishing companies writing high school/college level music as a day gig as well- Michael Phillip Mossman and Charles Tolliver for example. And then you could say that there are composers that haven't been recognized yet who are understudies to writers like Gil Evans, Brookmeyer, Jim Mcneely, who do copy work.
Commenting from a "vocalist 1st" and "basic musician 2nd" perspective . . . Composers write music and arrangers "arrange" pieces of music for singers, a group of performers and music ensembles. Both functions can be done interchangeably depending upon the level of expertise of either. A composer in my opinion is capable of composing music in a myriad of ways as well as arrange, while an arranger may not be able to compose a full chart; they can transpose, copy and write parts for standard compositions. A composer has the ability to create a composition from the start with specifics melodies, tempo, etc. in mind. Regarding Sy Johnson stating that he was an arranger and not a composer, is his honest opinion of his ability/opportunity (at that time)and not take credit for work that has not been recognized as such. And then again, he could have been thinking of the "interchangeable" role of composer/arranger.
ReplyDeleteIn a sense arrangers have to be composers, as stated above. Although they are using previously composed material, the most creative ones exploit any harmonic palette they choose-be it from the jazz tradition, classical, or any ethnic music they have been exposed to. Is that not composing? Any composition, tonal or serial, can be traced to previously used material, so the composer is doing what an arranger does. The distinction is not clearly drawn, as some writers prefer to compose a piece of music and give it to an arranger. (often Strayhorn arranged for Duke-although they collaborated a great deal. Although he was a brilliant melodist, did Irving Berlin actually write out all those delicious sophisticated harmonies for a song such as “How Deep is the Ocean”and “They Say It’s Wonderful” or was that mostly the work of a skilled arranger? Anyway, he lived for 101 years!! and proved that a Jewish man can write the most popular-“I’m Dreaming of a White Christmas” and “Easter Parade” imaginable. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Parade_(song)
ReplyDeleteAlan
PS: from the website: http://gozips.uakron.edu/~sjk19/Berlin.htm
Jerome Kern observed: "Irving Berlin has no place in American music. He is American music
I've been reading another Irving Berlin biography, As Thousands Cheer. This is the best biography on Berlin (also the biggest), and it included lots of gossipy details on his life. Israel Beilin was born Temum, Siberia, May 11, 1888; died New York, September 22, 1989. He acquired his last name, Berlin, due to a typo on the cover of his very first song, Marie from Sunny Italy. Berlin never learned to read or write music, and his tremendous output of popular songs were written in the key of F# on a transposing piano that had a lever to move the keyboard to different keys. He always played the more accessible black keys, which he called "nigger keys." Berlin always called his latest piano his “Buick.”. He dictated his songs to a musical secretary, usually Helmy Kelsa, who quickly arranged a piano score for Berlin’s music company. Berlin was neither a good singer nor a great pianist. “He didn’t play with just one finger, he played with all ten fingers – badly.”
I'm speculating that Dr. Porter's colleague(s) intended to convey that an arranger serves the important purpose of expanding on the musical ideas of the composer-as if going from "black & white" to "color" in a photo or movie. But, drawing on Ben's comments, this cannot be done successfully without high-quality source material to begin with. This evokes, for me, Vernon Duke's composition "April in Paris" a beautiful song in its own right, as demonstrated by Sarah Vaughn and numerous other artists. But it was Wild Bill Davis' arrangement for the Count Basie Band that gave the song immortality. Then again, he could not have done this without the composer's clever use of sequencing the melodic ideas throughout the 32 bar chord progression. And not your everyday AABA form, either-this form has no repeating sections. I think of the composer/arranger relationship here not so much interchangeable but interdependent. While I've listened to and enjoyed other arrangements of this piece (Bob Mintzer, Ron McClurdy) they did not invoke the power and beauty that the Basie band arrangement did for me. (Bird with Strings-in Paris! a whole 'nother conversation for a later date!) Here's another way to look at it...
ReplyDeleteGreat composer AND arranger-great piece of music
Great author AND screenwriter-epic movie
Great recipe AND chef-delicious entree........just food for thought...
ps I'm new at this blog stuff.....jazzlover is karen lee (schwarz)
ReplyDeletecan someone tell me how to change from "follower" to "member"
I know tomorrow's the last day of class but I have makeup work/blogs etc to do from missed classes so I'll be doing this all next week
it took me three tries to post that last comment! i accidentally deleted it twice and had to keep re-writing it ! whew!
A lot of great stuff has already been mentioned, but there are still some distinctions that need to be addressed. An arranger is confronted with a dilemma that a composer needn't worry about; the arranger has to ask himself: what is my duty to the source material? I recall driving saxophonist Rich Perry back to his apartment after Monday night at the Vanguard this summer. We were listening to WBGO and there was a big band arrangement of a really popular standard being played. I can't remember the arranger or the tune at the moment, but I do recall that the arranger was taking an incredible amount of liberties with all aspects of the tune; the melody, rhythm, harmony, and meter were all distorted. Rich made the remark, "If he's going to mess with it that much, why not just write his own piece?" This stuck with me.
ReplyDeleteA composition has no real 'responsibility' to a pre-existing work. The composer can choose to frame his music in any way he sees fit. By using the title "arrangement," one is setting up an expectation that their output somehow captures some essential element of the piece that is being arranged.
To put it in interior decorating terms: when someone has an empty room, they can get whatever they want to furnish that room, and there's no expectation about what type of furniture will be in the room or how it will all be placed. Sure, there are conventions of design, feng shui, etc., but everything is really up to the individual. In a furnished apartment, the options become much more limited. To smash apart a table and turn it into a desk chair isn't really a practical option (nor would the owner be too happy!). The furniture can be arranged very creatively, but the physical objects are clearly delineated.
Composing and arranging require two different "mental muscle groups." The challenge of arranging (as stated above) is how to take an existing work and inject into it new life that both encompasses and transforms the original. Composing, on the other hand, involves sending wholly "untested" material out into the world and attempting to account for every element of the piece without any skeleton to cling to. Both are daunting tasks, if you ask me.
Jim McNeely has an interesting take on some of these issues in an article he posts here: http://jim-mcneely.com/blog/?p=3
ReplyDeleteI got a lot out of this great discussion, folks--sorry for my late reply but I was working on a deadline the past days. The McNeely lecture that John posted at the bottom is a MUST--check it out!
ReplyDeleteTHANKS
Lewis